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Post by Administrator on May 23, 2008 10:55:22 GMT -5
Thought it was inappropriate to discuss it in someones trade thread, so ill transfer it here. JMHO Cash bad idea, too complicated to keep track of and trust me im one of the teams that would like nothing more than cash but i have done that before in my leagues and it just leads to not being able to keep track of it all. Tags on the other hand are fairly easy to keep track of, I'm all for Tags being able to be traded.
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Post by reid on May 23, 2008 12:10:30 GMT -5
I agree with tags and draft picks being traded, but not cash as I tend to agree with Brett on this one.
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Post by Cubs GM (Scott B) on May 23, 2008 12:12:28 GMT -5
I like the idea of trading cash but I am not sure how hard it will be to keep track of. Ive have noticed that some people have cut players with multiple year contracts and it seems like they are only counting this years salary for the cut. Since it seems like this is going overlooked I have a feeling that trading cash will get overlooked too. Especially if you trade a player w/ say a 5yr contract and you are paying some cash on every year on that contract. However, I do wish we had it in place if it could be tracked better. I think for a trade to be approved the teams transaction page should be updated before hand just to make sure that the contract/trade/cash details are correct. And part of the trade review panel would be to check that accuracy.
Also another way to help track the accuracy of contracts would be if everyone used the same format for players contracts. I find the Mariners' and my pages are easier to read but that may just be a personal preference. Another thing about transaction logs - Ive seen that some people log their trades but did not log FA signings, that also needs to be address but at another time.
I really wouldnt mind either way if tags could be traded or not just because its hard to gauge how much value they really have.
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Post by clegend33 on May 23, 2008 13:29:42 GMT -5
I like the idea of trading cash but I am not sure how hard it will be to keep track of. Ive have noticed that some people have cut players with multiple year contracts and it seems like they are only counting this years salary for the cut. Since it seems like this is going overlooked I have a feeling that trading cash will get overlooked too. Especially if you trade a player w/ say a 5yr contract and you are paying some cash on every year on that contract. However, I do wish we had it in place if it could be tracked better. I think for a trade to be approved the teams transaction page should be updated before hand just to make sure that the contract/trade/cash details are correct. And part of the trade review panel would be to check that accuracy. Also another way to help track the accuracy of contracts would be if everyone used the same format for players contracts. I find the Mariners' and my pages are easier to read but that may just be a personal preference. Another thing about transaction logs - Ive seen that some people log their trades but did not log FA signings, that also needs to be address but at another time. I really wouldnt mind either way if tags could be traded or not just because its hard to gauge how much value they really have. The main problem I see with having to keep up with this is, there is so much to keep up with already, that there is no way for the commish and his crew to keep up with it. We've had rosters over the limits for weeks at a time......... salary cap spent and available has been wrong for months for some teams........ and if I really wanted to cheat, I would just remove the Brandon Fahey buyout from my transactions page and act like it never happened. Would anyone notice? Nobody noticed when I went weeks without incluidng him. Had I not been honest and added it when I noticed the mistake, it would have never been noticed. This is not a knock on Ty or anyone else. I only have one team to keep up with, and have a hard time doing that sometimes. I can't imagine having to try to police 30 teams for accuracy. It can't be done. Ty is doing a great job with this league. I just think adding this element to our league will be something that will cause more harm than it does good.
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Post by clegend33 on May 23, 2008 13:33:56 GMT -5
Also, let me say this..............
The #1 reason for the tags is to keep teams on an even playing field.......... to try to keep teams like the Marlins on the same level playing field as the Yanks. Do we really need teams like the Yanks to be able to pick up 3 or 4 more tags each year through trades?
It will severly stagnate the free agency part of our league, because teams will no longer have to cut players into free agency as they can pick up unused tags for a bag of sunflower seeds. What I mean by that is, if the Marlins have six tags (which I believe they do) and they can only use 3, they could just give away the other three for very marginal players. Why not, the Marlins can't use the tags, so why not get something out of it?
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Post by jjbanks on May 23, 2008 13:58:11 GMT -5
Also, let me say this.............. The #1 reason for the tags is to keep teams on an even playing field.......... to try to keep teams like the Marlins on the same level playing field as the Yanks. Do we really need teams like the Yanks to be able to pick up 3 or 4 more tags each year through trades? It will severly stagnate the free agency part of our league, because teams will no longer have to cut players into free agency as they can pick up unused tags for a bag of sunflower seeds. What I mean by that is, if the Marlins have six tags (which I believe they do) and they can only use 3, they could just give away the other three for very marginal players. Why not, the Marlins can't use the tags, so why not get something out of it? Not true, Tags become very good bargaining chips as the teams without them will pay to get them. As far as the cash it is as easy to track as the tags. What it comes down to is the integritty of the league. If all owners are honest and treat this for what it is, a game then we would have no issues. As long as alll transactions are logged appropriatly we shouldnt have to worry. The leagues i play in that do allow cash trading keep it to a min of 5 M per transaction and must have what year/s the cash is traded in. Also you can only trade money to a team once, for example Ican trade the M's up to 5 m in one year. I can trade 1 m in 5 diff transactions but only up to 5 M. Again any and all of these things including the current rules can be broken or skirted by dishonest people , as long as we have adults who enjoy fantasy win or lose this league will grow and become more interesting. If we cant keep it on the level then this league will lose its good owners and fold prematurely. My opinion is all.
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Post by clegend33 on May 23, 2008 14:34:31 GMT -5
Also, let me say this.............. The #1 reason for the tags is to keep teams on an even playing field.......... to try to keep teams like the Marlins on the same level playing field as the Yanks. Do we really need teams like the Yanks to be able to pick up 3 or 4 more tags each year through trades? It will severly stagnate the free agency part of our league, because teams will no longer have to cut players into free agency as they can pick up unused tags for a bag of sunflower seeds. What I mean by that is, if the Marlins have six tags (which I believe they do) and they can only use 3, they could just give away the other three for very marginal players. Why not, the Marlins can't use the tags, so why not get something out of it? Not true, Tags become very good bargaining chips as the teams without them will pay to get them. As far as the cash it is as easy to track as the tags. What it comes down to is the integritty of the league. If all owners are honest and treat this for what it is, a game then we would have no issues. As long as alll transactions are logged appropriatly we shouldnt have to worry. The leagues i play in that do allow cash trading keep it to a min of 5 M per transaction and must have what year/s the cash is traded in. Also you can only trade money to a team once, for example Ican trade the M's up to 5 m in one year. I can trade 1 m in 5 diff transactions but only up to 5 M. Again any and all of these things including the current rules can be broken or skirted by dishonest people , as long as we have adults who enjoy fantasy win or lose this league will grow and become more interesting. If we cant keep it on the level then this league will lose its good owners and fold prematurely. My opinion is all. While I did mention dis-honesty, that is not a very big concern at all. My biggest concern is, who is going to police this stuff to make sure it is all correct?\ And as far as GM's using tags as trade bait and getting something real useful........... some GM's cant even use star players on league minimum contracts to make a good trade. So I don't see them being able to get something decent for their tags. And again, trading of tags is only going to allow the rich to get richer, in most cases. And again, it will ruin free agency, because GM's will be able to pick up enough tags to keep all their players. Tags are specific to teams. The teams with the most money, have the least tags. It should remain that way. The big market teams should not be allowed to tag 6 or 7 players and keep them all.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2008 17:48:51 GMT -5
Another problem with cash, is that the amount of tags we get is based on payroll. So would getting extra cash affect our tags then?
Maybe limit the amount of cash a team can trade and or receive in one year as well.
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Post by Rangers GM (jfleming) on May 23, 2008 18:40:53 GMT -5
I don't think we should allow the trading of tags or cash. Its extremely confusing, and I guarantee you things will get messed up. Tags are easier to keep up with but how do you value them. I agree with the Mariners. The rich will only get richer.
I also agree with the Reds about how the money will affect our tags. If I trade cash for a player and fall a tier will I get another tag? I will go with the league's decision, but I think it is better to leave it as is.
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Post by Administrator on May 23, 2008 22:56:38 GMT -5
Also, let me say this.............. The #1 reason for the tags is to keep teams on an even playing field.......... to try to keep teams like the Marlins on the same level playing field as the Yanks. Do we really need teams like the Yanks to be able to pick up 3 or 4 more tags each year through trades? It will severly stagnate the free agency part of our league, because teams will no longer have to cut players into free agency as they can pick up unused tags for a bag of sunflower seeds. What I mean by that is, if the Marlins have six tags (which I believe they do) and they can only use 3, they could just give away the other three for very marginal players. Why not, the Marlins can't use the tags, so why not get something out of it? Not true, Tags become very good bargaining chips as the teams without them will pay to get them. As far as the cash it is as easy to track as the tags. What it comes down to is the integritty of the league. If all owners are honest and treat this for what it is, a game then we would have no issues. As long as alll transactions are logged appropriatly we shouldnt have to worry. The leagues i play in that do allow cash trading keep it to a min of 5 M per transaction and must have what year/s the cash is traded in. Also you can only trade money to a team once, for example Ican trade the M's up to 5 m in one year. I can trade 1 m in 5 diff transactions but only up to 5 M. Again any and all of these things including the current rules can be broken or skirted by dishonest people , as long as we have adults who enjoy fantasy win or lose this league will grow and become more interesting. If we cant keep it on the level then this league will lose its good owners and fold prematurely. My opinion is all. Well I got a lot to say so I'll just refer to the team name that posted what i want to talk about, too much to say in order to make sure i dont step on anyones toes or hurt anyones poor little feelings ;D Cubs - You saying my roster is not easy to keep track of? Just because you guys choose to spend 30 min everytime you want to modify your roster doesn't mean other people do not have easy rosters to read. I will give you that there are a few that need some serious work, but i have attempted that table grid looking roster in other leagues and it was the biggest pain in the ass ever. I dont know who you are implying is cheating but you better be damn sure they are fudging the numbers before you actually come out and say that type of stuff aloud in a forum again. No disrespect meant, just looking out for you. Because I know it is not something taken kindly. Mariners - I agree with part of the Twins statement that you are looking at the Tags the wrong way. No matter how many tags the league compensates us with, It will not make up for the $40-60M im short that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees can spend. However that being said being able to trade away the tags I cannot use and I'm sure I will have at least one of the six that is expendable gives me that much more of a chance to level the playing field. It's on the responsibility of the small market teams to ensure the value of the tags. Personally if I was looking for a tag your the first place i would look because it seems you do not see the incredible value of a tag to a contending team. Twins - Your 100% right about the tags however your naive if you think Cash will be easy to keep track of. In the off season when you got 10 - 15 trades going through sometimes in just a week with people trading 2M in 2009 and 5M in 2010 for a few bench players and then they turn around and get 3M in 2009 and get 2M in 2010, and this is happening with every team. Good luck. If you think its so easy to keep track of then by all means go ahead and be the one that volunteers to keep track of all the cash and tags transactions for the LO. Keep in mind people are not as pure as we would all like to think. Not saying this league does not have people of integrity, but all im saying is we will not know until the temptation is put in front of them. Reds & Rangers - Hell No. Nobody will ever drop a tier because of a trade, I am 99.9999999% sure that the LO will back me up on this because i was there when we were discussing the tiers and where teams should go and all that shit. A Team Will NEVER jump or drop a Tier EVER! Disclaimer: If you were offended by my post (someone usually has no balls), dont be! Get over it was not meant to make you cry.
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Post by reid on May 23, 2008 23:19:19 GMT -5
I am hugely offended by Brett's post which means I have no balls. Go ahead and laugh. I am just kidding and just trying to lighten the mood after last week's events. Now onto the topic at hand here. Cash is traded in MLB and it is easier to keep track of because there is no salary cap. In this league, everyone has a salary cap. It just depends on what tier you fall into. I feel that it would be too hard for LO to keep up with cash being traded because we would each have to crunch our own numbers depending on how much cash we did indeed trade and I know no one wants to do that because I would not want to. Also, MLB does not use tags as exclusively as say the NFL does. The NFL does not allow tags to be traded and they only have a franchise and a transition tag. My point being is that no league can we use as an example in using what is fair value for a tag. For some, it could be some prospects and for others it could be a decent vet. I am of the opinion now after reading the previous posts which had some very good content that I am firmly against trading either. As for draft picks, I would say that they can be traded, but only up until 2009 right now for instance and not beyond. It would increase when the 2009 season starts. My main point is that real life major league baseball does not have a salary cap and does not use tags or trade them and I just don't feel that there is any example to show how much value these types of things hold.
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Post by tylernorton on May 23, 2008 23:27:25 GMT -5
I know this is a message board, but how about a page break every so often. These walls of text are tough to navigate.
I was discussing with another owner recently and we agreed that the LO does a TON of work. And still cant keep up with all the numbers. (which is understandable) But if you have 2 commissioners look over one team each per day then thats EVERYONE getting checked every 15 days. Which isnt bad. Cap calculations, roster limits, etc. Once they got a system going it would only take about 30 minutes a day.
Not that you guys dont check now, just that maybe a system in place would take care of these issues. (wether you decide to trade tags and cash or not)
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Post by Administrator on May 23, 2008 23:59:31 GMT -5
I did loose where was a few times in Royals post but i did get through it, and kinda see his point. I would be fine with tags and draft picks being allowed or if its just draft picks. I just cant imagine any situation where trading cash sounds like a good idea.
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Post by clegend33 on May 24, 2008 0:02:32 GMT -5
But if you have 2 commissioners look over one team each per day then thats EVERYONE getting checked every 15 days. Which isnt bad. Cap calculations, roster limits, etc. Once they got a system going it would only take about 30 minutes a day. Best idea you've had in......... well......... best idea you've had since I've known you. Will we have to wait another 3 years to get a good idea from you? Seriously though, this is a good idea, and one way it would work would be if each division had a captain, and that captain was responsible for checking the things above ever so often. Not sure it needs to be done more than once every 14 days, or even once per month. But I do think it probably needs to be done. I know, I feel like I'm pretty good at this stuff, and I know for a fact I spend as much time on my team as anyone else does, and I've added up my salaries a dozen times at least just in the last month. Yet, this week, in my trade, I picked up 3.3 M in salary more than I gave away, and ended the day with more money to spend than I had to start the day. Why? Because I had been making a mistake for over a month on my salaries, counting one that is .400 as 4.0. Not that that is something that anyone else would have caught, but my point is, mistakes can happen. But overall, I think Ty is doing a great job. I don't think we can expect him to do any better, and I don't think any of us could do any better. There's just a lot to keep up with, which is why I am against any trading of money, future draft picks outside of this season, or tags. I honestly can see no good that can come from trading of tags and money.
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Post by reid on May 24, 2008 0:06:30 GMT -5
I was just trying to say that MLB does not have any great examples for GM in this league in which to trade cash or tags without knowing fair value is the gist of my novel like post above.
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Post by Administrator on May 24, 2008 0:08:12 GMT -5
one league i was in its all in google documents, done just like your saying kinda
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Post by clegend33 on May 24, 2008 0:09:05 GMT -5
Mariners - I agree with part of the Twins statement that you are looking at the Tags the wrong way. No matter how many tags the league compensates us with, It will not make up for the $40-60M im short that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees can spend. However that being said being able to trade away the tags I cannot use and I'm sure I will have at least one of the six that is expendable gives me that much more of a chance to level the playing field. It's on the responsibility of the small market teams to ensure the value of the tags. Personally if I was looking for a tag your the first place i would look because it seems you do not see the incredible value of a tag to a contending team. Fair enough statement. But I'm not real concerned with the value of the tags. I'm more concerned that it will only allow a team like the Yanks or Angels to get farther and farther ahead. Right now, they cannot protect as many players as the rest of us, and I think it shoudl remain that way. And, you know better than to try to come to me with a low-ball offer in any trade. You know me better than that. I would ask for way more than the tag is worth before I would give mine up. However, I can tell you that my tags will never be for trade, as I need them. If we end up allowed to trade tags, I'll be looking to pick up a couple. But, I'm still 100 percent against tags and cash being traded.
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Post by tylernorton on May 24, 2008 0:11:06 GMT -5
Hey! First off, we have only "known" each other for about 4 months (on the internet).
Second, here ishow long for the second great idea. . . .
Have the captains of the divisions NOT be in their own divisions so no one cries foul. Have the Sox do the NL East, the Twins do the NL Central etc (not literally... just examples)
If we do decide to trade tags and money, there needs to be some kind of system in place FIRST.
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Post by clegend33 on May 24, 2008 0:13:34 GMT -5
Hey! First off, we have only "known" each other for about 4 months (on the internet).. Actually, you're wrong. I've known you since JAN of 2007. So it's about 17 months
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Post by tylernorton on May 24, 2008 0:14:48 GMT -5
Jan of 07? of from that league that never got off the ground.... yeah funny how small the community really is, the guy who wrecked that league for us wrecked my team in this league before I took it over and transformed it into the favorite for 2010.
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Post by robinhj99 on May 24, 2008 11:39:51 GMT -5
My opinion without evidence or supportive reasoning/logic.
Cash/tags = no Draft picks =only for the subsequent draft (so May 2010 one can only trade for picks in June 2010, in July 2010 only can trade for picks in June 2011).
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Post by Cubs GM (Scott B) on May 24, 2008 11:45:56 GMT -5
I just think before a decision is made all current rosters/transactions should be updated/checked.
Rays-
About the table thing - the reason why I said that was because for some teams (or the last time I looked at least) they didnt even have salaries posted beyond 08. The table would help that but I admit its not neccessary.
About the "cheating" thing. I dont think anyone is cheating I just think that either someone doesnt know/forgot about the dropping players rules, or its just that they did not updated their logs clearly.
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Post by jjbanks on May 24, 2008 15:59:58 GMT -5
Twins - Your 100% right about the tags however your naive if you think Cash will be easy to keep track of. In the off season when you got 10 - 15 trades going through sometimes in just a week with people trading 2M in 2009 and 5M in 2010 for a few bench players and then they turn around and get 3M in 2009 and get 2M in 2010, and this is happening with every team. Good luck. If you think its so easy to keep track of then by all means go ahead and be the one that volunteers to keep track of all the cash and tags transactions for the LO. Keep in mind people are not as pure as we would all like to think. Not saying this league does not have people of integrity, but all im saying is we will not know until the temptation is put in front of them.
I play in a league that allows cash trading and its really the same as a player or tag being traded. The diff is sometimes the cash is for future years. If people arnt honest it doesnt matter cash/tags dropping it all has potential to manipulate to get a leg up. If everyone kept a good up to date record of their rosters and was honest enough to play like humans should then it would never be a problem.
If an amount was capped in a trade and we could only trade that amount between 2 teams in 1 year it would keep it under control as well. Example Twins trade Rays 5M cash for 08 or 2m for 08 3m for 09. That would be the max amount I could send them in 08. I couldnt trade again and send them any more cash. If I trade 1 m then I could potentially trade 4 more to the rays . we could cap at any amount maybe even start low like 2-3M.
Money/players/tags/picks it all works out the same in my opinion, If we are all honest and play with integrity. Im not saying any one here wouldnt wich is why I dont see it as a potential problem. That being said this should be revisited in the offseson when the league knows where its going for 09.
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Post by jjbanks on May 24, 2008 16:00:54 GMT -5
oh and it is a good idea for moderators to be posted for each div. maybe even someone other than the LO. Again topic for 09.
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Post by Administrator on May 24, 2008 18:08:00 GMT -5
See already too complicated, nobody wants to try and keep track of that on top of it all already. I believe tags and picks could work themselves out because nobody wants to screw themselves out of a pick or tag and there are only so many out there, Money can just be changed by a modify button, If we get an excellent system in place then i can see many possibilities but until that system is in place I just cant see Money or Tags being traded, just picks. Makes sense just to keep it without either of the two being traded.
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Post by jjbanks on May 24, 2008 18:33:45 GMT -5
there is a search on this site and edit or no edit the histoiry is there. Thats only if someone is low enogh to want to cheat in a fantasy league. Im not naive enough to think it doesnt go on but I would hope that this league wouldn become that. And what we cant designate a person to moderate 5teams? If we really worried a bout cheating why not have the moderator post the trades themselves, lock the thread. simple but again do you actually beleive people would cheat and if so what makes you think they wont do it without cash involved?
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Post by Administrator on May 24, 2008 20:23:11 GMT -5
All I am saying is I dont want that position, I'll listen to the guy that does it but i want no part of the difficulties that arise when telling someone they left 6M off their roster.
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Post by Nationals GM (corkzilla) on May 25, 2008 9:32:24 GMT -5
All I am saying is I dont want that position, I'll listen to the guy that does it but i want no part of the difficulties that arise when telling someone they left 6M off their roster. There shouldn't be any difficulties, if the math is wrong its wrong. I say no to tags for sure, money would be nice for some of the teams with less money. I mean, the low number of tags teams like NY and Boston have are nice but then when they become FAs, they'll be the ones with the money to snatch them back up
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Post by The Ghost of Swo on May 25, 2008 12:20:54 GMT -5
this is in reference the marlins "great" idea, its a nice idea, except as Ty and I learned this past offseason we already have enough to keep track of, in addition to graduating next year and taking care of getting into graduate school, i don't know if you realize how long it takes just to check one team, it can literally take almost 30-45 minutes. i know that doesn't sound like a lot, but in addition to checking all the trades going through, any free agency happenings, trying to run our own teams, and trying to make sure I'm not worrying about this league 24 hours. I think it's a good idea that we could be checking the team everyonce in a while, but we already do that and checking teams everyday is little ambititious.
I really haven't said anything in regards to trading cash and tags, and thats because the esteemed LO, will talk it over when we get a chance, as we have plenty of time before the season ends. But i can say right now that i think it could lead to a balance of power, more so than we already have. Im opposed to trading cash and tags, I don't think it adds enough to the league, to counterbalance the amount it could hurt the league.
But keep up the talk, this is good. We have some activity which is nice. And I'm sure Ty and I would like to hear everyone's opinion before there's an official ruling.
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Post by bgreene33 on May 25, 2008 13:10:37 GMT -5
i dont comment on these threads very often but sense it almost seems like the opinion of every GM is taking into account i'm gonna leave mine as well...
i agree with those who feel that cash would be hard to keep up with... if there isnt anybody keeping a close watch on it then there is a good chance that a lot of people will lose track of it... if there is someone willing to look at each team's roster and calculate the amount of money he should have after every cash transaction then im all for it...
i'm all for trading tags... i think if u feel that teams such as the yankees shouldnt have more tags then value ur tags more and dont trade them... plus they are a lot easier to keep up with
draft picks to me are nothing but players... i think u should be able to trade picks for the upcoming draft... i think if u start tryna trade picks 2 or 3 yrs down the line then things get confusing...
just my opinion
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